Episode 55: Matthew Paul Turner – The Challenge of Raising Kids with the Bible

Jared: You’re listening to Faith for Normal People, the only other God ordained podcast on the internet. 

Pete: I’m Pete Enns.

Jared: And I’m Jared Byas.

Pete: Hey folks, we’ve been working on our children’s Bible for over a year, and it’s a project we are extremely proud of. And guess what? It’s finally here! God’s Stories as Told by God’s Children is out now and ready for you and your curious kids to read together. 

Jared: Yes, it’s informed by biblical scholarship, of course, with The Bible for Normal People. It’s inclusive, deeply respectful of children’s imagination and intelligence. God’s stories as told by God’s children is the storybook Bible you’ll wish you had when you were a kid. 

Pete: And it contains stories from over 50 contributors, including biblical scholars, theologians, and practitioners representing diverse religious traditions, locations, and lived experiences, mirroring the many voices we find in the Bible. 

Jared: God’s Stories as told by God’s Children allows parents to introduce children to their own beliefs and traditions in conversation with the stories found inside the Bible.  You can order your copy right now at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/godsstories

Pete: Hey folks, today on Faith for Normal People, we’re talking about the challenge of raising kids with the Bible, with Matthew Paul Turner. 

Jared: Yes, we are. Uh, Matthew is a photographer, a speaker, but also an author, including the bestselling When God Made You and When I Pray for You. His most recent book, What is the Bible?, is inspired by the work and ideas of the late Rachel Held Evans, who is a dear friend of the podcast here. It builds on the legacy of Rachel and Matthew’s previous collaboration, What is God Like?, which became a number one New York Times bestseller. 

Pete: Don’t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for quiet time as we reflect on our own experiences around parenting and the Bible. 

Jared: Alright folks, let’s dive in. 

Matthew: I had to recover from my experience with God and I, I just don’t think that we should ever have to recover from how we were introduced to God. People will throw that thing that, you know, the Bible is like a sword. Yeah. That’s why you should handle it with care. That’s why you should keep it in the case and only pull it out when you’re ready and know how to utilize these words with care and compassion.

Jared: Well, welcome back to the podcast, Matthew. It’s wonderful to have you again. 

Matthew: It’s good to be here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Jared: So you’re in this unique position. I don’t know the words you would use to talk about it, but you’ve really come alongside, um, our mutual friend, Rachel, Rachel Held Evans. And completed some books. This latest one. Talk a little bit about that. Uh, how did it come about? And how do you talk about it? Because it’s a little bit of a unique situation. 

Matthew: I found out that Rachel was working on children’s books from Dan, her then husband, when we were in the hospital with—I was, I had gone to see Rachel. 

She had been transferred to Vanderbilt. And, um, I met the ambulance there. And the idea that we would get to hold books that Rachel was working on and I could read them to my kids just like, it was something that really spoke to me, that got me excited about it. Like, I just loved the idea.

And, you know, at that point, we really, we really believed that Rachel would be finishing them and. And probably four or five months after, uh, Rachel passed away. I got a phone call from my editor and I, and she was like, “I think you’re going to get a phone call from Dan.” And long story short, they asked me to, uh, if I would be willing to come in and finish these books and, you know, personally, 2019 was a really hard year for me.

So there was a lot going on in my life. You know, there was a part of me like, “am I the right person to finish these books? How can I make it as Rachel as I possibly can,” you know? And so I invited a few other writers to help with certain, just a couple of little lines, or I, I asked, uh, Dr. Will to, uh, come up with a line of- “How do you finish God is Like,” and she came up with something. And then, um, Cindy Brandt, uh, who runs the Unfundamentalist Parenting, like she came up with something, uh, a little, a small, short little line, cause I really, like, wanted to include as many different voices as possible.

Um, anyway, you know, that book came out and people just really resonated with it. And I, you know, I knew that- I had been contracted for two books. Um, and I knew there was, uh, a three book concept that she- that Rachel- had imagined. And these were books that she literally had handed into her agent like three weeks prior to, um, going into the hospital.

And, and so, you know, uh, we kind of went back and forth on which book would be the second book. And, uh, Dan and the publisher decided it was going to be, What is the Bible? And so I started working on that. And then I just was contracted for the third book. And so the third book is coming out next year and a year after that, I think.

And it’s, it’s the one about Jesus. And so like she had come up with this, this three book trilogy, if you will, that was about God, about the Bible and about Jesus, which, you know, were all things that were really important to her. And she just wanted, she wanted to present books for children that offered a progressive look at how we experience faith.

Um, because there wasn’t, and there still, there isn’t a lot out there that does it, that does it kind of like how she would do it. 

Jared: Well, let’s maybe pull back and, and talk to you kind of in your experience with parenting and the Bible and faith at kind of as you’ve gone through this experience so that it’s not, you know, not speaking on behalf of Rachel, but really just your own experience.

So. You know, a lot of parents who struggle, uh, they’re in this kind of faith transition. How, how do, how do I express my own faith? They’re kind of wrestling with their own, and now they have kids and it’s sort of like, “I don’t, I don’t even know where to start with that.” I’m still kind of struggling on my own.

So for you, could you just share a little bit about your experience as you’ve had faith transitions, and you’re a parent, and how did all that, how’s all that going for you? 

Matthew: So, uh, you know, I’m not sure I’m the perfect person to ask because my kid, like, just a few weeks ago heard the word sin and then asked me what sin was. So, I mean, so maybe I’m sheltering my kids from the things that I experience. Because like, I think you and I, I think we discussed this the last time. The one thing that I found that has been difficult is so much of my faith and how I experience God now is birthed out of this recovery process, this process of having to go through healing and my job as a parent.

Like I’ve started- even before I would have called myself like, fully deconstructed, I was very protective of how they, how my kids kind of experienced God, like what they were going to, like, if we were to ever visit a different church, I was very vocal about “what are they going to be studying today?”

Like what, like, and if, if they were going to be studying something that I didn’t want them to, like, I just kept them with me. And part of that is just, I knew how I was hurt. I knew how I had been affected by all of those teachings and I know how churches can be, regardless.

I mean and it doesn’t really matter like in some cases, like, what denomination it is. I mean, there are certainly some that are a lot safer than others, but like I just was very particular about how my kids were going to be introduced to God. And I’ll never forget, like, when my oldest was five years old.

I was driving him to swim lessons and he looked at me from the rearview mirror and asked me “Dad, is- is Hell a real place?” And I- like, it startled me and I literally, I felt like God coming into the Garden of Eden. “Who told you that?” you know, and it was this, it was this conversation of, like, their kids had had in the cafeteria.

And I, and at that point, because we were getting ready to get out, and I didn’t want to, like, I just said, “you don’t have to worry about Hell. It’s not, don’t, that’s not something you need to be concerned about.” But it’s one of the, but those are the kinds of things that happen, that, that affect me, because they affect me, I had the tendency in the beginning, early on in parenting, to maybe allow my, my [word censored] to actually affect how I presented it to them or how I talked to them about it. And so like I had to keep doing a lot of healing like i’ve I started, I started doing some therapy, and you start doing some therapy and you stop projecting some of, all of the, some of the stuff that you, that I experienced onto my kids, because my kids, I realized that, you know, my kids go to a youth group because their friends are, you know, and in the beginning I was very hesitant about them going to youth group, but I have to remember, I’ve raised kids that are very aware, very self aware, very verbal in their approach.

Like, um, and, I have to have to trust them to come home, and they come home and they talk to me about like, you know, my, my daughter is, uh, my daughter, you know, wanted me to buy her her, you know, a particular by like a Bible with that- she could do notes with her friends and they’re reading through the Gospels and and she’ll ask me questions every once in a while.

Just very like, um, simple things. So I, but I, you know, when it comes to the Bible, I’ve been very protective, especially as a kid, or when they were little, very little, of what stories I told them about, you know, I just, it was just a very different experience than what I was raised in.

Pete: You’re speaking for a lot of people here.

I think a lot of young parents have a very similar, um, trajectory of being raised a certain way. And that tradition has meant something to them, but then they begin to deconstruct and they don’t know what to do with their kids. And should take him to church or not. I mean, I have family members who are dealing with the same kind of thing and I deeply respect-

So thank you for articulating it so well. It’s such a common problem. Um, you don’t want to deliver to them a faith that’s going to land them into therapy when they’re 20 for the next 15 years. Well, 

Matthew: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s, I, I had to recover from my experience with God. Um, and I, I just don’t think that we should ever have to recover.

Pete: Right. Yeah, that’s true. 

Matthew: How we were introduced to God.

Pete: But the struggle though, that I, that I had sensed from my conversations with other people and that I have to reflect on myself because I have three children. They’re all adults. They’re in their thirties now. And, uh, one of them came to me a couple of years ago and said, “Hey Dad, you have no idea how much the flood story terrified me when I was a child.”

And, and, and, and something happened. She was in mid-conversation with somebody, and it got triggered again. And I’m like, you know, “honey, I had, I had no idea. I wasn’t even aware of that.” So, um, but you know, my, my kids are aware of that, right. You’re aware of you because you’ve done the healing and you’re aware of that.

So I think it’s, it’s fantastic. 

Matthew: But let me just say, add one more point is- how I received that story is, we believed it was history. And so if you take the actual history part of that, out of that story, you can talk about, I can tell my kids that, “hey, this is a story that, that is a imagery for how God works in people’s lives, how God, and it is not a very happy story, but somebody at some point found something in it and thought that it was something worth telling.”

So, like, I’m very, like, I, I, I’m very, like, comfortable telling them that, you know, Noah, that the Noah story didn’t happen as we, like I, how I learned it to happen. But when you take out the historical element, I, because I was afraid of the Noah story as well, because I, I imagined God, like, slamming that door shut and then people banging on that door and trying to get in and not and you know, and God not opening the door.

It just, yeah, it just sounds terrible. But go ahead.

Pete: It is terrible, isn’t it? So yeah, the, the issue though that I see that is, as a difficult one for me to think through and to have a plan of attack for is how to connect children, let’s say, to the Christian tradition with this sacred text that is both revered and has been also traumatizing for people.

And I think that’s a very, I don’t really have a clear answer to that. I mean, I can, like you said, I mean, you dehistoricize some things and that’s, that’s not, well, that’s for a lot of people though. That’s not too different from-  the medieval church is not reacting to the things we’re reacting to, but they were all over that, like Origen was like-

No, he’s not medieval. He’s early church. But so he, he was like, “these stories are weird. There’s no way they’re true. There’s no way they happen.” They have to be, we have to look beneath the surface for some sort of a theological lesson or some sort of a connection to our lives, to our morality. So there is a precedent for that in the church, which I think is a vibrant thing for people to think about.

But it’s hard. You know, we got this tradition. How do you, how do you stay part of a tradition that’s been so problematic for people? 

Matthew: I don’t, I think you don’t stay a part. I like, I like, I think you, there’s, there’s certain elements of the tradition that you have to separate yourself with and find new ways to connect with your faith.

Because you know as well as I do, a core element of the faith was us sitting around debating scripture like we were receiving it out of the mouth of God and we were trying to, you know, one person would have one opinion about what this meant and then another person would say, “no, no, no, this is like, ‘da-da-da-da,’” and then you have another opinion. And so, like, I just, I never, from the very beginning, when I, when I was a parent, I decided I was not going to raise my kids in an environment where fear and spirituality were like best friends and they went together.

And so, like, we just never did. They’ve engaged faith a lot more now as, uh, as older teenagers or less, you know, young teenagers kind of thing where it’s, and it’s, and I’m able to be, and I’m healthy enough to where it’s like, Hey, you know what, I can stand back and let them. You know, like my, you know, my son went away to camp a couple years ago and, you know.

I did have to have a, you know, a debriefing with him at the end. “Okay, so what did you learn?” “Dad, the guy yelled and screamed and acted like an idiot.” Okay. Well, that sounds about right. So, I mean, so like, I was able to discount it for him and agree with him because I didn’t have, I didn’t feel the need for him to get something from it.

I wasn’t hoping that he was going to have some like connection to God through this experience. I wanted him to go have-  Matthew. You’re like 

Pete: Matthew. You’re like the opposite. You’re you’re, you’re the opposite of the fundamentalist parent. Who says, “what did you learn there? What did they tell you?” Right. You’re, you’re, you’re just, you’re, you’re, you’re flipping that script a bit for a very different reason.

I just, I just think that’s ironic and wonderful. 

Matthew: It was timing Pete. I deconstructed kind of at a time where it was, you know, it was before deconstruction was a word. It was just called the slippery slope. And I was all, we were all sliding down it and. And there was no, like, unifying factor in it, but, um, it was just right at the time as, uh, you know, their mom and I had kids and, uh, we just made choices that we wanted to do things differently.

And so we’ve become very protective of how they did, how they engaged it. And, you know, some people are in situations where their kids are older, they’ve already kind of given their kids a little bit of a foundation in that world. And now they’ve deconstructed and now they’re doing, they’re kind of engaging it differently.

And so the, you know, so I think having, like, really thoughtful conversations. Hey, I just want y’all to know like, you know, when you, when you think about your own personal story and how you engage God with your kids to say, “we made a mistake in how we, how we presented that. We were-” you know, if, if harshness was a problem, you apologize.

Like you, you, you start, you start new and, and just know that like, I don’t, I’m not afraid of my kid becoming an atheist. Like I don’t have, like, I don’t sit around like and and I know that my, you know, where I came from, how I was raised, it was like all the parents feared that their kids were either going to be an atheist or gay. And so, like, it just, like, you know. They were doing all they could to make sure that they had the right little you know, or, Pentecostal where I was from, that was up there in the same list. And, it’s like there are real stresses that parents experience, but I think, Pete, most of the time when it comes to something parenting-wise, the problem is, is, is usually with me that I, it’s work that I need to do.

And when I do the work, I am more relaxed and I’m a better parent. When I do the work and deal with my own stuff from my spirituality as a kid, I’m way more relaxed and I can handle the things that come up, you know, with my own kids and I don’t let fear be the dictating factor, which is hard though.

But I mean, like, and, and doing the work is, is a privilege because not everybody can, can afford to go to therapy or I can afford to have that process, but we can all, like, work on ourselves, and stop allowing our  [word censored] to have an effect and negative effect on other people. 

Jared: I want to take a left turn because I think the opposite side of this coin that maybe doesn’t get talked about a lot. Because I think, at least for me, I’ve had lots of conversations about kind of the more serious side of this. Like how do we keep our kids from the trauma of it? And a faith where they don’t have to recover when it comes to the Bible.

But I think in my, at least in my parenting experience, the flip side was also the case of- I don’t even know how to keep them engaged in this thing. Like the, it’s not even that interesting if it’s not held by some sort of like, uh, you know, there’s this seriousness because your, your soul is at stake.

Yeah. There’s, if we’re not dealing with fear or like belonging, if it’s not that, then when I look at it as one of my kids were, it’s like, oh, this is not that engaged. Like it’s not that engaging. It’s, it’s kind of boring. And it’s as they’ve gotten to be teenagers. I’ve seen that more starkly because it’s more interesting to them now because they’re capable of having those kind of reflective moments where they’re, they’re struggling with their spirituality.

They’re asking the questions and now the Bible is something we can kind of engage at that level. But before then, it’s like, I don’t know how to even talk about this in a way that’s not just super boring. As a kid, it’s like we all had this, this, uh, unspoken pact that we were going to pretend like it was super interesting, like, I was gonna love going to a fall festival dressed as a Bible character, and I was gonna love, like, these stories that we were told.

You know, once you’re out of that, it’s like, and now I’m not, I’m not bound by that kind of social contract. I’m kind of like, I don’t know how to make this interesting. So I don’t know if you, if, how have you struggled with that? Even as you write, you know, this book, like what is the Bible? And we’re trying to talk to kids about engaging this thing that I think sometimes it’s hard to get them to engage, 

Matthew: You know, I, I think that there are geographical differences when it comes to this. Because the South, and in the South, Christianity is such a part of the dialogue and it is such a part of the everyday conversation. Most of my kids’ friends go to some sort of, you know, faith experience on Sunday. So, like, I’ve never, like, thought about how to keep them engaged because they’ve naturally progressed that way. Only because they’re friends, most- and something like- my oldest is like just goes to the youth group because his friends go to youth right or whatever.

Jared: Yeah, 

Matthew: My daughter on the other hand, she’s very interested in engaging it and wanting to know what it’s about and how it works and and yet is, you know, where she has- I remember before my kid, before my son went to youth camp, I, you know, I’ve talked to him about like, no, you’re probably going to hear somebody talk about masturbation.

Okay? And I want you to ignore it. All right. I just want you to, I just want you to keep just- ignore it. Um, And sure enough they talked about masturbation, like that was one of the things and so-

Jared: You’re a vet you’re a veteran math and you knew you knew where to spot the landmines. 

Matthew: Yeah but it’s also like, but that’s also one of those other things that’s also a negative thing so I’m trying to keep it, I’m trying to make it, you know.

Think about it from a positive standpoint. My thing is, is the positive stuff is how I engage them. Like I, you know, every three, uh, when my kids are with me, um, on those evenings, we have like, uh, you know, eight minute time where we’re like either talking about what’s going on during the day. We’re talking about a prayer list, like having things that we’re going to be praying for people.

We’re going to be praying for what’s going on in their lives that that we can kind of like talk to God about, and then we just have those moments where sometimes we’ll light a candle and then that’s our prayer. And sometimes we just have an actual prayer. Um, and so I think that in, like, less is more.

It is true when it comes to, like, these experiences because my, my, I don’t feel the pressure to guide my kids to be engaged. They’re either going to, they’re either going to have an interest in the topic of, of being, you know, using the Bible as a, as a stepping point to find their reason to be empathetic.

But I’m hoping that regardless of whether that’s real, they’re going to be empathetic. Like it’s like, my thing is I want to teach them values that are based on my, that I based on my faith, but I don’t necessarily always bring it back. “Well, Jesus says-” you know, I don’t use Jesus as this guilt trip or Jesus as this like tool. Like, Jesus is my, my focus and why I try to pursue humility, why I try to pursue empathy, why I try to fight for justice on behalf of people who, who can’t or don’t um have that opportunity. And so, like, I want them to see that in me. Maybe, um, but I don’t go out of my way to, like, present it to them that way.

Like if they see it, great. If they don’t, you know, that’s like, I, I’m, I’m not stressed out about having to map out there. You know, I’m way more stressed about my kid getting home from school and being a new driver, like that kind of stuff. Like I, you know, um, and you know, making wise choices, but I know I want to give them enough tools to have where they don’t fall prey to the other side. 

Because that’s going to, like, when they go away to college. If they, I mean, regardless of what kind of school they’re going to, they’re going to come in contact with, uh, with fundamentalists that tell them that, you know, if you do this, you’re going to Hell, you know, that your dad, your dad is gay, so you, he’s going to Hell.

Like, I mean, that kind of stuff. And so I need to, I, you know, we talk about, I’m able to talk to my older kids about those things in light of my own story, like I don’t, it’s not a projection anymore. It’s just. This is what happened to me and this is what is- 

Pete: It’s very authentic. It’s not manufactured. It’s authentic, right?

Matthew: It’s just, it’s my story. And so, and they’re very, you know, and they may, maybe they will not have to deal with those types of, you know, individuals, but I think that with, especially with the, you know, uh, young, young men in our, my family, my, my, my, my boys, I’m very concerned about the messaging that they’re going to receive.

Um, that is that macho, toxic, masculine, you know, BS. And so I engage those things. Um, and if I ever were to, when I bring up Jesus, it’s because I, I bring up Jesus as like, you know, as Christians, we, we believe humility is a really awesome thing. Like, it’s beautiful. Like, it’s a thing that is attractive and, and we do it not to show off or to, but we do it because it’s a good thing to do.

Um, And so those are the things that I have, like, found myself talking to my kids about now. Um because I want, I want my kids to have a strong sense of self. I want my kids to have a, you know, um, autonomy. I want my kids to have, uh, to be present in their own bodies and be able to stand up and, and, and for themselves, but also know that they, they carry a lot of privilege with them.

And how, how to use that well? I think one of the things that Rachel, like with this particular, What is the Bible? that Rachel was really passionate about is this idea of genres and, and sometimes it’s useful to, like, when we’re praying, we’ll read, we’ll like go to a psalms that is very much a prayer and we’ll just read, you know, my daughter will read a psalm and, and we’ll think of it like it’s a prayer. 

Um, and, you know, there are other, you know, when we get to why, like the, the wisdom books, you know, we talk about, you know, Rachel talks about how these. stories that we’ve learned from scripture told in different ways. And sometimes that is a very helpful thing for us to use in our favor when we’re trying to unpack the complications of what scripture-

Pete: Yeah, you know, one thing I’m hearing from, from both of you, from what you both said, Jared, your question and your answer, uh, Matthew is, you know, thinking of the Bible, not as, um, that thing that must be there and all its totality from the very beginning and have three-year-olds going to the Sunday school class, carrying a Bible, all that kind of stuff.

It becomes more of a tool for when they’re ready to engage the kinds of issues that maybe scripture will touch on in Psalms or in the gospels or whatever. And, and that’s, I mean, I’ve gotten into some trouble with friends of mine. Um, right. But, uh, because I, I really have been thinking over the years, I just don’t think the Bible is a children’s book at all.

I think you can tell children and talk about Jesus and the stories of Jesus, and you can talk about God, and I just don’t know where I would land in many parts of the Bible to, and even, you know, the good parts like Jonah, you know, God even has mercy on your biggest enemies, the Assyrians kind of things.

Like you have to have a whole intellectual backdrop for understanding the point of that story, right? And it’s just, it’s too much. It’s just too much. Like learn songs, you know, or, or, I mean, dip your toes into the psalms, but not all of them, you know, cause some of them are pretty, you know, the little violence in there too.

So, and people are looking for direction. 

Matthew: The one question that I would give, I would ask in that, in that idea is I do want my kids to have enough of an, oh, a background of knowledge about the Bible. So they are not, don’t become, not victims, that’s not the right word, but like, 

Jared: You wanna inoculate them like-

Matthew: They, when, when, when someone weaponizes the scripture comes, yeah.

To be able to speak back to it. Like which, which is something that is very much a possibility. Um, I want them to know context a little bit, or at least they know that they can talk to me about anything. Like, they have that, they have the ability to ask me whatever it is. And if I don’t know the answer, I tell them, I don’t know the answer, but I can help, I can, I can do some research on that. But like, it’s, those are, those are the types of things I just don’t want.

We live in a, a, uh, a society where scripture is probably more weaponized now than it has ever been in my lifetime. And I grew up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church and was, it was constantly thrown at me like a weapon. And the thing is, it was so much a part of my culture that I, it didn’t, it didn’t, I, I, I couldn’t, I could not differentiate.

Pete: Yeah. 

Matthew: What was, you know, how it was being used wisely versus how it was being weaponized. Like, I just didn’t have that wherewithal at the time. I want my kids to have that wherewithal. Yeah. 

Jared: I think that what kind of, I think we’re, we’re circulating here too, is not the Bible itself, but the place and the role of the Bible in the Christian or in a faith expression.

And I think for me, that’s more of, I think, because my kids have grown up in a more Anabaptist Mennonite context and tradition where the Bible isn’t that foundational thing that when you’re three, we have to, because “where else does all of our moralism come from, if not from the Bible?” that it’s in the Anabaptist tradition, it comes from community, like, we get it.

The Bible has a different role and place. And so, even if the Bible’s not meant for children, for me, the, the inoculation wasn’t, “I need them to know enough about it to combat it.” I just needed them to understand the place that it likely plays in their faith tradition, because if it’s kind of minimized and over to the side, someone using it as a weapon is kind of like, I don’t know.

I guess the difference between getting a thumb prick and getting stabbed. It’s like, okay, yeah, it maybe hurts a little bit, but that’s a small weapon because it’s not, my whole faith is not based on that thing. So I think there’s maybe some of that too, of what is the role of the Bible in the larger landscape of faith?

Pete: And I think your book, I mean, the title even gets to that, right? What is the Bible? That’s the question, right? In a sense, It’s not “let’s do Bible stories” that assume they’re relevant for children because they’re little animals jumping into a boat, right? That’s, that’s not gonna work. But what is it?

You know, and it’s stories about this. It’s stories about this and-

Matthew: I really do like how Rachel did, and this was this, Rachel’s, uh, original idea had, you know, it started with the idea that it’s a library, it’s a library of stories. Uh, you know, some of which are about God, some of which are about people who believed in God.

Some are about really terrible people, and so and so it goes into that but it is this like this collection. There’s this history part that we’ve taken out. But then we also can take it like when we take out this idea that it is out of the mouth of God, you know, that God like, you know that God like presented this on you know as a-, that, that it’s inerrant on some level, like, I think that that is, you know, that’s where we are.

That’s where this, the Bible becomes this terrible thing that, that regardless, like lots of people can misuse it. You know, you can be a progressive person and, and still misuse it if you’re careless with it. And I think that, you know, it’s like when people will throw up that, throw that thing that, you know, the Bible is like a sword.

That’s why you should handle it with care. That’s why you should keep it in, keep it in the, in the case and like only pull it, you know, pull it out. Unless when you’re ready and know how to, to utilize, utilize these words with care and, and compassion. And so it just, um-

Pete: Or maybe turn that blade towards yourself in a sense, you know, the internal examination, not always shooting it out towards somebody.

I think I feel, I love the word, um, that  you used before Matthew about not being. careless with the Bible. I think that’s a great way of putting it because, I mean, people will think, I mean, genuinely in their heart to think they’re doing the Lord’s work by weaponizing the Bible towards other people, but there’s a carelessness about that.

And I think, I would also say, I mean, not to get too, too, um, too into the woods here, but there’s also sometimes a lack of self-awareness and self-examination as they do that. And that’s, um, I think a lot of problems might go away if we examined ourselves a little bit more and, and display that humility that you’re talking about, that you see is modeled in Jesus.

Can I maybe push 

Jared: Can I maybe push back on that a little bit? 

Pete: No, you can’t. I’m right. 

Jared: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

Pete: As long as people know I’m right. 

Jared: I’m not supposed to do this on air. No, just, you’ve always, always asked me to push back after we’re off-

Pete: When he beats me. Yeah.

Jared: Uh, but I wanna push back. I mean, not push back. I think add nuance to Yeah, sure. Because again, the idea of, uh, we don’t wanna be careless with the Bible, but sometimes I feel like we take it too seriously. There’s also a level, and I think we, you know, uh, being able to study Jewish interpretation, there’s, there’s often a playfulness.

So I think sometimes we don’t want to be careless, but sometimes we also don’t want to be too serious. And it’s a weird juxtaposition. 

Matthew: I think we should always, when it comes, especially in how it relates to kids, I don’t, I think we should always, like, not be overly serious. I think that that is the problem with, so, with parents who are coming out of an evangelical background who are deconstructing, they don’t know, they want their kids to have some sort of spiritual experience growing up.

Like, I think that they’re, most of us come into the situation way too stressed out. Even if we’ve done the work on ourselves, we can still be stressed out about how- “will my choices-” like there’s that, that fear lingers. Well, I, am I damning my kids on some level to a, you know, eternal destruction because I have altered my perspective on what this means, right?

Working on your own fear, your own relationship with fear and shame is very beneficial. To how you will use, how you will raise your kids and think about spirituality in their life.

Like, I think that when we- again It I mean, I hate to keep coming back to this idea of of it being a, a “me” thing where I I just know that almost every time that I have worried about a parenting issue as it relates church or how it relates to the Bible, um, and what my kids believe versus what my kids don’t believe. It is a me issue, um, that I am, you know, I think I’ve got more work to do, like, like a lot of times it’ll be, you know, I, I did some, a lot of inner child work in 2022 and, and when you start to work on your inner child.

As it relates to your presentation of the Bible or your understanding of faith and God like there is so much healing that can happen that you need now that you can utilize, you can call on your inner child to help you figure out “why am I so stressed out right now? Why is this particular question from my kid causing me so much anxiety.”

What do I, like- sit within my, you know, sit with myself and I can think back. “Why, what is this triggering in my story and how can I love my inner child and help them feel safe?” Because when I, when my inner inner child feels safe, my kids are always going to feel safe. My kids are always going to feel loved.

My kids are always going to feel cared for. And so, I think that so often, rather than focusing all- Again, it goes back to what you said, Pete, about turning that sword on yourself a little bit, where it is like, if we’re constantly looking for ways for us to, to get better, to get healthier, it’s only going to be positive in, in every aspect of our parenting journey.

When I was afraid all of the time, or when I was constantly fighting that fear, like, like, like doing it under the guise of, you know, uh, justice, you know, calling out justice or calling out somebody like, I mean, I, you know, you can get caught up in it, but it, it, you know, you have to, you’ve got to have a healthy relationship with that, or it starts to bleed into how you go and engage your kids with faith. 

But also how they engage their friends and what their friends could possibly, like, I, you know, my daughter has this very, you know, uh staunch Trump-supporting seventh grade friend in her class who just, you know, she comes home and, you know, she, she just has lots to say. Okay. And you know, I’m able to help her let that go because I’ve learned how to let it go a little bit in my own story.

I don’t need to fight the neighbor, have, like a war of words with my neighbor who is, you know, has the Trump flag up. Because at the end of the day, I’m not responsible for making that person change their mind. I’m only responsible and can only change me. And so helping my kid understand that, um, which is again, when I was a kid, it was my responsibility when somebody was wrong about God or about politics,  it’s all very much the same thing. You sat them down and because you know, 

Pete: Because you know. You know.

Matthew: You had to steer them in the right direction. So like, again, you like, I still think that there are a lot of elements of spiritual abuse and church abuse that are not yet mainstream enough to where we really fully grasp the depth of the layers involved.

Like, I think that we feel like we’re, like, when we deconstruct and we get to the very bottom of, uh, like, our faith and we, we finally, you know, find the reason to let go and, you know, or, or, you know, embrace agnostic, uh, you know, embrace being agnostic and, or whatever, like, however that looks like for each individual person.

You can still carry with you a whole bunch of damaging storylines that are bred from this fundamentalist Christian evangelical “my way or the highway” kind of experience, and you can still be really unhealthy. You’re just unhealthy in a different way. And so like, I think that there are so many layers that- like, I think therapy is becoming a lot more alert to the layers, but I still think that there’s, uh, a lot more that we are discovering, um, in this, you know, the last four or five years.

Especially as we watch a lot of people deconstruct and deal with things that we all deal with, but we just didn’t have a name for it. And now we have names for it. And so I think that there are a few other things in that list that we still are, have yet to have names for.

Jared: I think everything that we just talked about is why I think- not to speak for Pete, but I will- while we’re so excited about the work that you’re doing. And it’s, it’s, that is the work of, it’s not running away from these conversations and these questions, but it’s reframing them. It’s, it’s redeeming them.

It’s moving them in a different direction so that we can start to, to see these things in a different lens. Especially for those of us who grew up with, there’s only one right lens and it’s a lens that maybe caused a lot of harm. And so to see books like What is the Bible?, What is God Like? is part of this healing journey.

So thank you, Matthew, for your work, um, and for what you’re contributing in that space. You’re, you’re creating healing, I think, for a lot of people as well. 

Matthew: I hope so. I, I mean, you know, I think that it, each of these books, you know, each of the books that I’ve finished for Rachel. I have felt, I have felt like I needed it before, you know, like I needed the book, like I needed to re-familiarize myself with some of the basics of about the Bible, not that I need, I, you know, I know all the stories, but when it came to, like, grasping it from a, uh, a genre and the idea of genre and, and, you know, and it, me being able to say some of the things that, um, this book helps, will help kids and parents verbalize.

Um, I think what’s great about this book is it gives parents language to help them talk about something that so often we don’t know how to talk about. Um, and I think hopefully it will lead to just healthy dialogue. Uh, and, and, you know, even if it’s just within themselves. 

Pete: And keeps them out of therapy. And I don’t say that jokingly. I say that very, very seriously. 

Matthew: Pete, I think that I, like, I think we’ve said that the last time I was like, I don’t, I don’t want my kids to have to, 30 years from now, recover from how I’ve talked to them about God. I think that is a very, very important thing. We have a, an epidemic of people who are, who were, you know, born into some sort of faith in the eighties and the nineties and the early two thousands.

And, and, and, and it, it was affecting on various awful levels, um, and, and yet because it’s faith, we have this attachment to it that makes it that much harder to deal with. Because we, we, we can’t get away from the fear that “am I denying truth on some level?” And I think that’s why your, our relationship with fear is a, and shame is a real beautiful thing because I think it’s ultimately, it affects how we are, how we relate to God, how God sees us, right?

Jared: Well, thank you, Matthew, for coming on and for sharing your perspective. And again, for sharing these works with the world. 

Matthew: Well, thank you for having me. 

Jared: And now for quiet time…

Pete: …with Pete and Jared. Well, we just had this wonderful discussion with Matthew Paul Turner about the Bible and children.

And it’s sort of a perennial topic and a lot of stuff to think about, I think from this episode and, uh, how about you, Jared? Any, any, any, anything just pop in your head and stick with- this is like Lectio Divina, like what’s the word. Yeah, what was that concept?  

Jared: Totally legate, take up and read? 

Pete: Yes. What happened?

Jared: That was a nerdy reference. It was, sorry folks. Just edit that out. Um, no, you know, Matthew talked about this briefly and it stuck with me throughout the whole episode that faith is born out of, his faith is born out of a recovery or a healing process that it’s always marked by that and that, that shaped how he looked, that was his outlook on faith so that it affected how he parented and other things.

So I was curious for you if that’s been true, because I know for me, it’s, it’s absolutely true. And I, I like this phrase, uh, in some ways, some ways I don’t, but I like the phrase of “post-evangelical.” 

Pete: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a statement. 

Jared: The rest of my life, whether I like it or not, my faith will be shaped by my evangelical upbringing, both the positive of it, and also my then reaction to it, um, and so it will always take that shape and I, I’d rather just welcome it and honor those influences than try to pretend that I’m not, and just like completely react against it while still kind of acting within it. So I like that way of talking about it, that his faith is born out of this healing process. It’s always going to have a flavor of recovery as a part maybe.

So does that, does that resonate with you? Oh. Do you have things like that, that sort of mark your faith journey and will kind of always be with you in that way? 

Pete: Yeah, I think so too. I don’t even know what they are half the time. I just, sometimes, they just sneak up behind me and say, I still think that.

But, um, I think the, the need to, I mean, Rohr talks about this too, to really like, um, I forgot the language he uses, but just to bring along with the journey, your past, you don’t, you don’t shun it, you don’t throw it away and like it or not, you know, I’m, I’m a product of, you know, German parents who raised me in the faith sort of. And then growing up Lutheran, and then being Nazarene for a while, and then being a Calvinist for a while, then I think I’m an Episcopalian now, I can’t tell, but the thing is, I mean, all that’s, I don’t, I don’t look back at any of those moments and say, well, that was stupid and wrong, because that’s part of who I am, and I have to embrace that, and I, and there’s good and bad with everything, and, and I think that that’s healing.

And, um, one thing that struck me there about that is that the way Matthew was talking about healing, it’s really learning to love yourself. 

And if you love yourself, you love others, which sounds oddly biblical at that point. And that’s a hard thing to do because it’s a hard journey to learn to love yourself and to forgive yourself and, and to take risks of, of thinking about old things in different ways. And, and, um, yeah, so I, I very much resonate. 

Jared: Yeah. And maybe there’s a part two to that just cause my, the only other thing I wanted to talk about here in the quiet time was just that idea of how we project onto others, especially our kids, the things that we’re experiencing and just the- so important to do that work, that self awareness work.

To realize, like, I know in the moment, it really feels like it’s coming from them or it’s external, but if we take a step back, it’s actually coming from us. Um, it’s our own fear. It’s our own concern that they’re going to do X, Y, or Z and never stopping to think, well, maybe it’s, that’s my fear that that’s going to happen because of my experience. It’s not actually data. The evidence doesn’t suggest that they’re actually going to go down that road. 

Pete: And just to stop yourself from doing that. And every time this comes up, I just, I can’t get away from, I mentioned Rohr again. Sorry for those of you who don’t like him, but, um, 15, 20 years ago, I was listening to a lecture of his on a CD.

Jared: This is how long ago it was. CD. 

Pete: He gave that line. “what is not transformed is transferred.” And when I heard that I said, “Oh crap, I’ve been doing it wrong. I know what I’ve been doing now. I’ve been, I have not dealt with my own issues and it’s being transferred onto my children.” And I learned that a bit late.

You know, I learned that more in my 40’s, I think, you know, I wasn’t even conscious of it in my 20’s and 30’s when we had the children there. Hence the lack of reflection when it comes to things like the Bible, you know, and I wasn’t as bad as, you know, some people cause I’m a critical scholar. And I, I know the complexities.

I don’t try to give simple answers, but still. The vibe was there from the fears that, you know, what if my kids turn out wrong if, you know, what if they embarrass me, if they get these Bible answers wrong and, you know, all that stupid kind of stuff with it, which is all about me, right? 

Jared: What comes to mind in terms of the, what Matthew was talking about?

Pete: I, I, one thing that I mentioned, um, that I want to sort of develop it a little bit more, cause I think I didn’t make myself clear. It’s the issue of how do we process things in a way that doesn’t carry with it, the harmful, the toxic elements that we’ve been taught, but still stay part of a, part of the Christian tradition.

And Matthew said, you know, well, you just don’t stay a part of that tradition and you move on. And I do agree with that, but I think I would want to add something to that, that the process of adapting is staying in the tradition because that’s what the tradition has always done, right? There’s always been an adaptive dimension to it in both Judaism and Christianity. People don’t believe in Jesus today the same way they did 2, 000 years ago.

Things have changed. We have different kinds of questions and that adaptiveness, you know, I’m pretty adamant about that in my own thinking that that’s, that’s not a wrong thing. That is a good thing. I’m sure Matthew would agree with that. So that’s the question. What, what, how do we adapt to, uh, let’s say the weaponization of Christianity, which is very much a part of our culture and people reject that and they reject everything, you know?

So how, how do you raise kids in that environment to be critical of this? But also, um, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. If I can use that expression, I don’t think there’s a need. 

Jared: It’s like a, it’s like a, uh, the phrase that comes to my mind is a weaponized, uh, resistance. Um, in the sense I, I- not meant, like, resisting it.

I mean, thinking like, uh, you know, in a, in a, a vaccine is like getting a little, a little bit of it so that you can, you’re not taken down by it. And I think that’s kind of the thing is how do we, and that’s kind of how I thought Matthew was talking about it a little bit. I want my kids to know enough that they’re vaccinated against this.

Pete: Yes. Right. Right. 

Jared: And for me, what I’m tying it to with what you’re saying is, If we vaccinate our kids against it, there’s a chance that they’ll stay within the faith tradition, because they realize that for what it is. It’s not, “Oh, that is the tradition. And so if I reject that, I’m out of the tradition.” It is like, well, yeah, some people think that that’s a very small- 

Pete: One way to know that is to sort of be familiar with the Bible stories and, and, forgive me how the Bible works, and what the Bible is.

Jared: And how people have used it for centuries.

Pete: It’s, it’s actually, it’s interesting. It’s, it’s actually, it can be life giving. Yeah. Go figure. 

Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give

Pete: And if you want to support us, and want an all access pass to our classes, ad-free live stream of the podcast, and a thoughtful community of people asking tough questions about the Bible and faith, you can become a member of our online community, the Society of Normal People at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/join

Jared: And lastly, it goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@thebiblefornormalpeople.com. 

Outro: You’ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People. Don’t forget you can catch our other show, the Bible for normal people, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible For Normal people team: Brittany Hodge, Stephen Henning, Joel Limbauan, Savannah Locke, Melissa Yandow, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Lauren O’Connell, and Naiomi Gonzalez.

Matthew: Or like She-rah.

Pete: A blast from the past. Haven’t thought about that for a long time.

Matthew: It’s back on. There’s a whole new series.

Jared: Oh my, my sister wears a She-rah sweatshirt probably three days a week. It’s three different sweatshirts.

Matthew: Not just for Gen X anymore.

Pete: My goodness gracious. That’s a little upsetting.